EPISODE 63: Post Election Hope

Join us on a journey of hope and reconciliation as we navigate the complex emotions following a tumultuous election season. With Dr. Andrea Sims and retired Pastor Dave Rhodes, we confront the challenges that politics have imposed on faith communities. Together, we unpack the critical need for justice, mercy, and faith to maintain respectful and constructive dialogues, even when disagreements arise. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of how individuals of faith can rise above the negativity and division that often surface in political discourse.

Our conversation delves into the divisiveness that has crept into faith communities, where political differences have fractured relationships and distanced us from shared values of charity and love. Through painful accounts of racism and threats faced by African-American students, we stress the urgency of empathy, forgiveness, and reconciliation within churches. With stories that highlight the disillusionment of some believers, we underscore the importance of self-reflection and repentance. This episode is a call to action for believers to align their actions with the teachings of servanthood over power, ensuring that faith communities authentically reflect their values.

We emphasize the power of love and words in nurturing unity and hope. We encourage listeners to engage in personal journeys confronting uncomfortable truths, including racism and historical biases. With hope anchored in God's unchanging love, we invite listeners to find strength and solace in becoming students of God's Word demonstrating love for our neighbors in these challenging times.

#election2024; politics 2024; #worldelections; #loveyourneighbor

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Chapters

• 0:00 Post-Election Hope in Faith
• 6:03 The Challenges of Post-Election Division
• 14:16 Duty to Serve Beyond Power
• 20:19 The Importance of Words and Love
• 25:57 Confronting Racism With Love and Understanding
• 31:02 Embracing the Wholeness of the Gospel
• 38:00 Hope in God's Unshakeable Love
• 51:11 Hope in Jesus Christ

Transcript

Dr. Andre Sims: 2:16

Some, of course, losing friendships or opportunities to take advantage of internships because they didn't complete said program. So it is a sad reality of some of the conversations we need to have for hope in the midst of what these people have, and especially in the community of faith right.

Grantley Martelly: 2:36

T hat's correct. W e've got to have these discussion s and we hear this all the time. People say you know, People say you know, people will write things that they won't say to your face. Sometimes people feel emboldened with a text message or with an Instagram post or with a Facebook post. They put stuff up there, you know, and and it's just unbelievable the things that people have done.

Grantley Martelly: 3:04

So, welcome back to Above the Noise, and today my guests are Dr Andrea Sims and Pastor Dave Rhodes, and we're going to talk about post-election hope, and I know to some of you that sounds like oxymoron, but when we ended, we hope that you will come around to agree with us that there is hope even in times when it may seem hopeless. We just came through a really tough election season and for some, people are celebrating, some people are scared, some people are apathetic, some people are celebrating and some people have said this is probably the most important election of our lifetime. I'm not sure if I agree with that, because I'm sure in every election somebody has said it's the most important election of our lifetime. You know, I can think about maybe World War II or the Vietnam or the Cuban Missile Crisis. I'm sure people looked at that and said this is the most important election of our lifetime. But it is important. Every election is important because major decisions are being made and there's always stuff that has long-term repercussions.

Grantley Martelly: 4:19

This podcast is about faith, race and reconciliation, and we're talking to people of faith.

Grantley Martelly: 4:25

We're talking to all people, but particularly people of faith, and I believe it's important for how people of faith show up and in my opinion, I would say that in this last election, some of our brothers and sisters didn't show up, at least in the more stellar ways, with distinction. I remember some of the things that even came across my desk and my phone and my computer that I had to block because some of them were just so unbelievably ungodly in my opinion. And it reminded me of a passage in the book of Matthew where Jesus is talking to the scribes and Pharisees and he says You've chosen the mint and the anise and the cumin and you forgot the higher things of the law, which are justice, faith and mercy. And I think if we look back, we can look back on this election and we can see some places where justice, faith and mercy took a backseat to other things. So today, my two esteemed gentlemen are going to help us with this discussion.

Grantley Martelly: 5:22

Dr Andrea Sims is a pastor, a psychologist, a counselor, and now he has a new title of teaching pastor. So he is moving on.

Dr. Andre Sims: 5:33

Praise God.

Grantley Martelly: 5:35

Yes, after a few years, and we've also worked on a number of different projects together, and last year he introduced me to the new ministry that I didn't even know existed was a ministry to the stable hands and stall guys who take care of the racetrack. Absolutely, it's a very, very great ministry. We like it and really great people, and I look forward to doing it again this year with you. Pastor Dave Rhodes is a retired minister. After 40 years in the ministry, he took some retirement and decided to come to our church and then within six months we had him assigned a temporary assignment.

Grantley Martelly: 6:16

So we are hoping that that temporary assignment ends pretty soon and you can get back to being a retired pastor. So we want to discuss some of the aspects of the election and our goal is to end on hope. So let's begin by Dave. I'll ask you what are your first impressions of the election, what are some of your observations and things you would like to talk about?

Pastor David Rodes: 6:38

Well, I think that hope is seen against the backdrop of despair, right or?

Grantley Martelly: 6:45

hopelessness.

Pastor David Rodes: 6:46

And I think that's really what we have here. We have a lot of divisiveness and where the political conversations actually divided families and friends, drove wedges between people who had been longtime friends. I know that as a pastor. We just had people disappear from conversation and when you dug down into it you realize that it was kind of an accumulation over several years, since COVID actually, where there was this permission sort of given that even Christians took permission to kind of other people and not have to humanize them or know them by name or nurture the relationships, because the opinion we held became more important than, like, the faith that we possessed in common.

Pastor David Rodes: 7:46

Yeah, so it just kind of. I mean, that's one thing that just struck me People couldn't seem to talk together from opposing sides and maintain their sense of civility, or I mean in the Christian sense, their sense of charity and love for one another, Love for one another yeah, that's good

Pastor David Rodes: 8:08

People become so ingrained in their position that pretty soon I think I said this on one of my previous episodes we begin to defend things that we would not normally defend, because we find ourselves so far down the road.

Grantley Martelly: 8:22

Now we feel as though we've got to defend it, or we're embarrassed to pull back and say I made a mistake, or we have groupthink and we don't want to mess up with a group. You know things like that, pastor Andre. What are some of your initial impressions?

Dr. Andre Sims: 8:38

Yeah, I think we've already hit on the fact that we sit across from each other and next to each other in the pews or in the seats on Sunday morning. We have relationships, and then you read someone's post and you go wait, that's the person that I've been fellowshipping with for the last four years. That's what you think about, and so that part was challenging, I think. The need to be merciful, the need to forgive, the need to have dialogue with each other so that we can rekindle and restore and reconcile and, if necessary, repent and reconcile and, if necessary, repent. So I guess I just was really challenged by some of the things that occurred that no one could have actually totally anticipated, such as within 48 hours of the results of the election.

Dr. Andre Sims: 9:36

You know, within 48 hours of the results of the election, you had college students, specifically African-American students, being targeted by emboldened racists with threats of slavery if you can actually believe that in the 21st century and receiving emails, personal emails, by name. So it wasn't this generic block email. It was to, you know, david R or to Grantley M, and you know I just pulled it up on my phone so I could just quote it. This was on CBS Morning News. This email said greetings and it has the student's first name and last initial. You have been selected to pick cotton at the nearest plantation. Be ready at 12 pm sharp with your belongings. Our executive slaves will come get you in a brown van. Be prepared to be stripped, searched Once you enter the plantation. You are in plantation group S. That almost sounds like somebody made that up.

Grantley Martelly: 10:48

Yeah.

Dr. Andre Sims: 10:49

That doesn't sound real, but that is an outcome post-election.

Dr. Andre Sims: 10:57

People are feeling bold and to say things that, yes, hitherto before would not have been said, and it's not thatened to say things that, yes, the two before would not been, and it's not that they didn't believe it or feel it before, but post-election, they feel the liberty to now spread whatever they were feeling, regardless of what it may or may not do in the lives of others, to the extent that you have college students, as we sit here right now, december the 16th, who are sitting at home either doing classes online or not doing school at all, because their parents, out of the fear of these threats, didn't know how viable or credible they were, so they withdrew their students from school, some losing scholarships, some, of course, losing friendships or opportunities to take advantage of internships because they didn't complete said program. So it is a sad reality of some of the conversations we need to have for hope in the midst of what, of what these people have, what these individuals have had to live.

Grantley Martelly: 12:06

And especially in the community of faith. Right, that's correct, we've got to have these discussions and it seems like people you know and we hear this all the time People say you know, people will write things that they won't say to your faith. Sometimes People feel emboldened with a text message or with an Instagram post or with a Facebook post.

Grantley Martelly: 12:27

They put stuff up there. You know, and it's just unbelievable, the things that people have done and are doing, because you know we're still coming up to inauguration there, so people are still in the celebration more that we won and you lost and we're going to make you feel as though you lost. So you think about those things being written and sent to people.

Dr. Andre Sims: 12:54

Yes, yes, I believe that we were having a discussion a bit about kind of what foundation needs to be laid to have hope, which we will, but just kind of your initial commentary about our need to repent as believers, just kind of because of our faith, because of our personal relationship with Christ, because of this ambassador mantle that we're supposed to be carrying. You even related a story of someone choosing to walk away from the opportunity to be in the family of God because of the behavior of some believers.

Pastor David Rodes: 13:50

Yeah, I think sometimes we think that nobody is watching except our group, our people, that we think we should be like, loyal to Like. So if you, you can't afford to disagree politically because that's viewed as betrayal Right, and sometimes we forget that we're living before a watching world, like in a hungry world, and I just know that. I worked a long time with this person who was a not believer. She was in education, she had a real sense of justice and things like that, like a lot of times good-hearted people do so finally she really got so hungry for Jesus that she started actually coming to ask more questions and coming to church. But when she saw some of the posts, social media posts, people who went to the church she was now attending and she thought I cannot be a part of it. I don't even want to be a part of that right, because how can you talk about Jesus and Jesus and live so contrary to what you're proclaiming right? And so she stopped and that was a tremendous grief.

Pastor David Rodes: 15:17

And I think sometimes what's happened is that sometimes we forgot, we have forgotten what the mission is, that we do have a mission of being good news people to our world and instead we get hunkered down in a particular opinion or something that we believe will save our piece of the pie going forward and we forget that we're called really to be servants. And maybe that's one of the things that's been forgotten is that in all of this it's been kind of a lot about power and how can I have religious power so we can get done what we want to get done, rather than realizing that, as one person put it, when Christianity has assumed to a position of power, things have usually not gone very well now sometimes we forget that.

Grantley Martelly: 16:14

you know, our, our call is not to power, our call is to servanthood. But one of the things that keep coming up to me too is, you know that I've noticed in in the church and in religious circles is people don't recognize some people don't recognize what is biblical and what is traditional and what is cultural and what maybe even the way they were brought up and they may be in church their whole lives or they may be coming to church or whatever, and you see, some of the things that they do and it's like that's not biblical, that's cultural. A lot of the things that I believe we saw in the election, whether it was for power or whether it was for whatever the position was, you know, abortion or immigrant rights or all these things lots of those are traditional and cultural, because what the Bible says about immigrants and orphans and widows is pretty clear right, we have a mandate to take care of the widow, the immigrant and the orphan right.

Grantley Martelly: 17:22

He didn't say we consult with the Supreme Court or the Congress on what we do. He said that is what we do, that is what you're supposed to do. But then you get in this cultural thing about what about this and what about that, and you know the way that I see it. You know I tell people I, as a representative of the kingdom of God, when God brings somebody into my life, into my circle, is not to ask them what their status is. He didn't bring them to me to ask them what their status was. He brought them to me for a higher purpose of what they do and what they don't do.

Grantley Martelly: 18:00

And I think sometimes we get caught up in these things. You think about things like religious nationalism. I call it religious nationalism just because it's not just Christians. Nearly every religion has religious nationalism, right. And how we want to structure the government or structure the society to support our religion and our faith, right. And that's how we get into this power struggle. Who has the most power to change the way things are? Whether we call it religious nationalism or Sharia law or whatever, it's the same thing of. If I can get me and my group in power, then we can force everybody around us to become like us.

Dr. Andre Sims: 18:52

Yeah, well, it's kind of like finances, right, like your job is not your source, right, my job is not my source. God is my source. Right, the government is not my source for peace. Correct, god is my source. That doesn't mean I don't advocate for righteous people in government. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that the nationalist, or the nationalism, tends to lean beyond the scope of what the scripture would advocate for when it comes to trying to find an answer to whatever the societal ill might be.

Dr. Andre Sims: 19:35

And when you mentioned cultural, you know we have this idea of these colloquial phrases like the ends justify the means. But as a believer, the end has to be as moral and biblical as the end. I don't get to use a wicked or ungodly means to get to the end. It all has to be on the table, in the light, yeah, god honoring. It can't be under the table or in the dark or contrary to Scripture as opposed to congruent with scripture, and then say, okay, well, we did it, we landed where we wanted to land. Now, god was dishonored and grieved the whole time, but we landed.

Grantley Martelly: 20:20

But I would say, andre even take that further that for the believer, for the person of faith, the means is more important than the ends. Okay, the means carries a lot longer message, because people will watch how we act, watch what we do. How did you get there? We may get there and say, yeah, but people are remembering everything that happened along the way, right, what we did here, what we did there, and we could cause more harm in the way we got there than in what we accomplished.

Grantley Martelly: 20:53

It suggests that we can't trust God to do it.

Dr. Andre Sims: 20:56

We have to manipulate it, because God alone will not, cannot, hasn't, whatever the case might be.

Pastor David Rodes: 21:07

Yeah, and you end up saying then that somehow I can keep my heart right and maybe a means that is not loving and reach an end that I really want. We say that could be to the glory of God. But again, like if we grieve the Holy Spirit getting there, then by the time we get there we won't know what to do with that power because it will be self-serving right. And it will exclude other people and it will always justify I'll always use it to justify my meat.

Dr. Andre Sims: 21:40

N ot y'all and them, but as believers and I'm in the family of God as a believer, I'm quick to justify, rationalize my own sin. I'm quick to excuse what I've done, because I don't want to deal with the conviction and the reality of having failed God yet again, in whatever area it is that I have fallen short in. So I understand why it happens. I think our conversation is one of helping us to own the fact that the next step, after I come to that realization, is to repent of what it is that the Holy Spirit has convicted me of and to potentially help with the restoration of those who suffered as a result of my sin choices. You know I'm a big advocate for learning. What I don't like is when I make choices that cause me to learn at other people's expense.

Grantley Martelly: 22:46

Yeah.

Pastor David Rodes: 22:49

So any other observations? Yeah, I just think that one of the things that's contributed to the chaos is that we've lost our appreciation for the value of words. Words matter, right, what is said, how it is said. So there's a lot of hateful rhetoric and and then it's kind of like it's a feeding frenzy, right, and it just increases more and more and it can be toward. It can be toward a people group, I mean, even if it's toward a, a group of people that I may not agree with. Still, the words matter, right me. Disagreeing with them does not give me a license to dehumanize that that's good.

Pastor David Rodes: 23:29

We talked, I mean in experiences we've had in the past. I've just come up. This phrase has meant a lot to me, and that is that issues have labels but people have names, and so but I can address issues and be as mean as I want to be, but I forget. On the other side of that are people who have names that are actually created in the image of God, who are as equally loved by God as I am, and so I just think we've just somehow we've just forgotten the power of words and man. The scriptures are filled with that, and the ultimate word spoken to us has been the word from God's mouth, jesus himself right, that's good.

Dr. Andre Sims: 24:10

Yeah, the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks, and so it's exposing, it's revealing what I choose to say. I have a friend that owns a company and one of her most common phrases amongst her employees is that everything is evidence. Everything is evidence amongst our employees is that everything is evidence and everything is evidence. And so the way that I speak to you, if I don't Ephesians four, 15, choose to speak to you in love, then I've failed at the task. Sometimes people, because it's the truth, they just believe it can come out any kind of way because whatever is being communicated is true. But I still have this obligation to speak the truth in love.

Grantley Martelly: 24:59

That's what Right.

Dr. Andre Sims: 25:01

You can't drop the phrase right, Right.

Grantley Martelly: 25:03

You know and I talk about this all the time right, love our neighbor as ourself. And too many times we just say love our neighbor and we forget that as ourselves. Yes, right, and if you do that, you can love or your neighbor and still wish them harm or still speak evil of them or still do all of these things Because again they just I'm just loving my neighbor, right, and I can love them. You know, yeah, it's true, you know it's true. But if you put as yourself on the end, then it says everything I want for myself, I want for my neighbor. If I don't want to be treated that way, then my neighbor shouldn't be treated that way. That's good. If I don't want that kind of school for my kids, then I shouldn't want it for my children. If I don't want people to live in, if I don't want to live in fear, then I shouldn't want my neighbors to live in fear. When you put the as yourself on the end, it changes how we approach the person.

Pastor David Rodes: 26:06

So true, it becomes personal, it becomes personal. It actually has to become personal, it has to become personal right and that's a big caveat in the whole thing, right?

Grantley Martelly: 26:18

Yeah, and that's one of the things that I saw was missing at this election the as yourself part. There was a lot of neighbor stuff, some good and not so good, but there was not, in my, my opinion, and it's not a lot of people right. So a lot, of, a lot of people did the right thing, a lot of people were kind and tried to, but there was the, the, the atmosphere that the tension of the election to me was not love your neighbor as yourself and, and we're talking about like within the church, Like if within the church there had been this love your neighbor as yourself, which is like this expression of how we return love to God right Then in the church.

Pastor David Rodes: 27:03

if there had been that, then the church could have been a witness to the world as to the power of the love of Christ. That's good.

Grantley Martelly: 27:17

I want to touch on this area of racism a little bit more before we turn the corner, because I think we would all agree that the church has not dealt with the issue of racism very well.

Grantley Martelly: 27:32

I definitely would agree with that, Whether it's in practice or in conversation, and the fact that we can't even have conversations in churches about this right says a lot about why we haven't dealt with it.

Grantley Martelly: 27:47

And one of my wishes will be that someday we could get to the point to where we can have conversations about these things, about racism, about how we treat each other in a way that is constructive, so that we can actually deal with it.

Grantley Martelly: 28:04

And one of the things I learned and I learned this in our family reunions when we had a family reunion about looking back at how we were raised and our psychology and the things that were endemic in our family, and one of the things I came out of that with we can talk about our ancestors and our foreparents and how they lived and the things they did, without being disrespectful of them, if you're willing to have the conversation and if you understand that they were acting within the knowledge that they had at that time.

Grantley Martelly: 28:41

And I tell people all the time I don't think the framers would be impressed with us walking around trying to defend their decisions like we are. They would be like we just made the decisions we had to make at the time we were in the room, we were in the situation. We may disagree with them, whether they were slave owners or whatever, but I think they would say you know, we made the decisions we had to make, so why are you trying to defend it and try to pretend that we were perfect? We never said we were perfect. We wanted to create a perfect union, but we never said we were perfect. But we can't even have that conversation.

Pastor David Rodes: 29:16

That's true. I mean it's really, I mean it's difficult because I think there's so much. There's such a knowledge gap, right, and an experience gap many times. So when George Floyd was murdered, I made a decision personally at that time to say I know how things go. Something happens and then you're all committed to trying to figure it out for a few months and then everybody goes back to work right, and then you're all committed to trying to figure it out for a few months and then everybody goes back to work right and then you forget it and I just decided that that wasn't going to happen for me. And so I found ways to start trying to really learn and understand some of this.

Pastor David Rodes: 30:03

And I'll just say that a lot of times, if you look from my experience, my white perspective, so I took a trip to East Texas where a beloved great-great-great-grandfather who came over and he settled there and he established that county in East Texas, in East Texas. And I got there and I learned he was a slave owner and then child slavery, right. And so we went to the library and we checked out the records and what he owned and listed under what he owned was his house and his slaves. He owned them, and so now all reports written reports was that he was like a godly man, that he treated his slaves well, that he even had them buried with him, but that did not excuse the whole system.

Pastor David Rodes: 31:03

And so my brother and I, we took this trip and so we stood on that land and we just said, Jesus, would you please forgive us? And we made a repentance right, because I'm of the view that in doing that it not only does something in our hearts but also does something in the spiritual realm that can affect something in on the spirit, on the physical realm, right On how we live out. And so I, I just like so it's hard to talk about a lot of times because you don't want to like diminish people Sure, you don't want to, you know, and at the same time I mean you want to defend their intentions. A lot of times I've had good intentions, but it was just good intentions about the things that were not, they're not.

Dr. Andre Sims: 31:57

Yeah, we don't always receive correction well like that. We tend to be defensive. But Solomon said, proverbs 27, 5, open rebuke is better than hidden love. There's something to be said for someone who loves you enough to tell you what. Thus saith the Lord. Again, that doesn't give them the right to be ugly or hurtful, but to say what the truth is and allow, within the family of God, allow the Holy Spirit to take that truth and for him to minister to the person based on potentially something they didn't even know. And so when James mentions the royal law, james chapter 2, and he's talking about he lists these sins, explaining that if you fall short in one part of the law, you're guilty of breaking all of the law.

Dr. Andre Sims: 32:53

I think that again, as believers we kind of got that old country buffet golden corral mentality. We're cherry picking different portions of scripture to stand on and believe in and represent. But actually we're supposed to believe in the whole counsel of God, not just the parts that fit well with my history, of my own culture or family or heritage or right. I got to own the fact that because we're all fallen, I've got fallen people in my family tree who made fallen choices that potentially are impacting me and or the culture today, and I'm no exception. I'm not the guy that has it'm not properly representing as a son of God, and so this idea that I can focus on an issue I'll just take abortion as an issue and I can make this grandiose thing which I know from people who are more educated than me about it like granted, even what people think they know about the issue isn't 100% accurate.

Grantley Martelly: 34:19

It's not what was discussed, right.

Dr. Andre Sims: 34:22

But let's just assume that I've landed in the right place biblically.

Dr. Andre Sims: 34:25

I've looked at Psalm 139 and I have some understanding about when birth begins, at conception and so on and so forth.

Dr. Andre Sims: 34:34

But then when somebody brings up that, whatever the movement is maybe not a statement, maybe not a sentence, maybe not a quote of a phrase, but the movement of the, whatever the political party, the, whatever the political party is, or whatever the direction is politically, the movement is causing or creating or opening the door for emboldened racism or sin, I'm supposed to take a step back from whatever that is, recognizing that all sin is equal, and say, well, I don't know that I could advocate for said entity or said person or said organization or said, because, as a believer, my goal is to be an ambassador of Christ, not an ambassador of, and then you can fill in the blank and that's whom I'm called to represent, as opposed to what I'm choosing to do with my liberty and freedom in this country. So I just think that having the ability to have that kind of conversation, where my desire is to be one with Dave, not to be right in my argument with Dave, Right, yeah, To have a discussion Right and to have a discussion right.

Grantley Martelly: 35:48

And, yeah, I'll just say we're not called to be issue believers. We're not called to be people of issue. We're called to be representative of the entire gospel, of the entirety of the gospel, right, amen. We're not given the privilege of cherry picking Even the things that we're struggling with. We're not given the, in my opinion, the privilege to cherry pick that and say well, I'm going to stand with all the Bible, but this issue that I have, I'm just going to put that aside.

Dr. Andre Sims: 36:25

And I'm going to go on which is the one the Holy Spirit has tried to get. Yeah, the one he's trying to get, he's sending the Grandleys and the Daves to me to say I know you're working on these eight, but this one over here I told you about three years ago, that's the one I'm trying to get. That's the one.

Grantley Martelly: 36:39

I'm trying to get right and I think what we've developed nowadays is, in some places, issue believers. Right, I believe because of this issue or that issue or that issue, I'm supporting this or whatever. I'm trying to help people see the totality of the gospel, the totality of the message and like, even though the person you're dealing with may not be right in everywhere, they're still valuable in the sight of God. Amen, right, it's like the person who comes to Christ. They're coming to Christ because they're not perfect, right, and sometimes I'm joking around that. Sometimes we want people to be sanctified before they come to God. For sure you know that would help.

Pastor David Rodes: 37:21

That would be very helpful. That would be, you know.

Grantley Martelly: 37:25

So, and I think some I brought that up because sometimes it translates into I think it translates into life, right, Right, I would love you as my neighbor, as myself, if you just did this, this and this first Right, you know. Dave's got to do this, this and this first, and then I'm going to put the eyes of yourself on him, but until then he's just a neighbor. Yeah, I don't know if this is making sense or not, but it's like oh, we're tracking with you.

Dr. Andre Sims: 37:50

We're tracking with you. We're tracking Micah 7-7, but, as for me, I watch in hope for the Lord. I wait for God. My Savior, my God will hear me. In the midst of all the chaos and all the frustration and everything that we talked about so far. There is hope in the God of hope.

Dr. Andre Sims: 38:12

We do have his ear 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He doesn't sleep, he doesn't slumber. He knows Grant Lee's pain. He knows Dave's frustration. He knows Andre's frustration. He knows Andre's disappointment and he's listening to whatever the petitions are, whatever it is that we're asking of him, and his desire is that we would place our hope by faith, even though the circumstance may look hopeless.

Grantley Martelly: 38:47

He desires that we place our so you turned a corner for us there. I did. Thank you for doing that.

Dr. Andre Sims: 38:53

I knew our time was. That was a good turn. Thank you for doing that.

Grantley Martelly: 38:56

You know we want to end on hope and that's a great, great transition there. What do you see as the hope for us?

Pastor David Rodes: 39:05

Well, I think we're talking about love right. So you've been talking about love your neighbor as yourself. The first part is love God, but that is a response to God's love for us, and I think where we've gotten is because we have become even professing believers, have become alienated from the love of God.

Pastor David Rodes: 39:26

Believers have become alienated from the love of God. If we would once again sit in the presence of the God who loves us extravagantly, relentlessly, then something would begin to happen within the heart, because I just think that the love of God is that strong that may then release us to actually and I owe my brother Stan you know he's been doing some reflecting on this, but you know, jesus did have a pool. He put everybody in, you know, and that pool was neighbor. So love your neighbor as yourself. And so if, if out of the love of God I mean not believed in the love of God but experience the love, then that I think that can begin to open a door to to really love the person next to me who doesn't look like me, doesn't agree with me, isn't on the same wavelength I am, is not in my group, not in my club, does or doesn't go to my church, but just recognize that love is to flow toward that neighbor.

Grantley Martelly: 40:36

Or they may not go to no church. That's right.

Pastor David Rodes: 40:39

They may not want anything to do with God. Yeah, we're still called to love them.

Grantley Martelly: 40:45

We are man. So this thing of hope, right, I think about this. And how do we help people to see that, even though we live in a country and this podcast is listened to all over the world? I am amazed at how, when I look at the statistics, I don't even know how people are picking it up.

Grantley Martelly: 41:07

right, but every country has a constitution, every country has laws and stuff. And how do we help people to see that our hope is not in our constitution or our Supreme Court or our president or our Senate, but our hope has to be in something that is unshakable and unmovable and doesn't sway over the tides or the political climate of which party is in power, because those things will change.

Dr. Andre Sims: 41:38

For sure. Yeah, I mean, we serve a God that's immutable, right, Unchanging. Jesus is the same Hebrews 13, 8, yesterday, today and forever. And so, even though I'm crazy about people that I'm close to and I got some people, by the grace of God, that are crazy about me but as I was on this brother's phone yesterday on my way to church, I said, man, you have affirmed me and I'm encouraged, but I have to warn you, I'm broken, Like. I appreciate you saying this and that about me, but my hope and I want your hope to be in the one who is immutable. I want your hope to be in the God of hope. Romans, I looked this up. Romans 15, 13. Romans, I looked this up. Romans 15, 13,. May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. That's where our hope is rooted.

Pastor David Rodes: 42:38

Yeah, that's I mean, that's. The hope is in him right.

Dr. Andre Sims: 42:44

Amen.

Pastor David Rodes: 42:44

I want to pick up on the word you said. We're broken and I think for the restoration of hope and to live it, there has to be like this different posture I said on one occasion talking to a group about how to love people of the LGBTQ community. I was just talking about the issue of, you know, with social media and the bad behavior of some Christians, we've dug ourselves into a deep hole, right For sure.

Dr. Andre Sims: 43:16

bad behavior of some Christians.

Pastor David Rodes: 43:17

We've dug ourselves into a deep hole, right For sure and so, but the thought is, the only way out of the hole is to get low enough, like you have to actually have to become people who are willing to say, hey, I'm broken. It's the grace of God that meets me where I am. It's the grace of God that can meet you where you are.

Pastor David Rodes: 43:39

And this is our hope. It's his grace, right. It's his powerful love, that is, I don't think he looks past our stuff. I think he looks at it and gets on our side in it and immerses himself in the mess of it, right? And I think our hope is going to be found that, because it's not going to be like a wishful thinking sort of thing, it's just actually going to be like hands and feet of. Jesus with people who are also desiring and needing the mercies of God, like we are.

Grantley Martelly: 44:11

And we extend that hope to people by extending grace and mercy.

Dr. Andre Sims: 44:15

For sure.

Grantley Martelly: 44:16

Giving them the ability to, as we realize we are broken, that they're broken too. And if we're willing to give ourselves room to be broken, we got to give other people room to be broken. And then we got to trust in the God that we say is immutable and unshakable. Just as he's working with us, he can work with them. Amen.

Pastor David Rodes: 44:38

To bring them along.

Grantley Martelly: 44:39

Amen, you know we may be on different parts of the journey, but if we give them some grace and some empathy and some space and say we may not agree right now or, you know, whatever you want to do lifestyle, racism, politics, this thing or the next thing but if we give it to God, he can bring us together on this journey and we can walk together and maybe, while you're struggling with your struggle and I'm struggling with mine, we can help each other along and we don't shun, Like I think we've learned in recent years how to shun people right and so, instead of shunning, we are actually to be hospitable yeah we're actually to be gracious, and not only when we're around them, but but how we talk about them yeah, and and a lot of times when we shun people, we also shun in issues.

Grantley Martelly: 45:38

We're also shunning issues. So I think that's one of the reasons why we don't talk about some of these issues.

Dr. Andre Sims: 45:44

And then we kind of have this unfortunate challenge of, as they say, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I really, really don't want to offend Dave because we're friends but we have different ethnicities, and since I don't want to offend him or say something that steps on his toes, unintentionally even, I'm just not having the conversation. I just much rather let's just talk about the Seahawks and the need to beat the Rams this week and that be our engagement Very surface.

Dr. Andre Sims: 46:17

And that be our engagement Very surface, non-invasive, because I don't want to misstep, but out of the fear of misstepping, I'm closing the door on some opportunity to connect and engage in a way that's ministering, that's mutually beneficial.

Grantley Martelly: 46:34

But it's mutually beneficial to us. But it also demonstrates to other people who may come along. Us having that discussion may be an open door to other people to come along who are struggling as well, because it's not always about us, right it's about the kingdom Are you sure?

Dr. Andre Sims: 46:57

It could be a little radical right here.

Pastor David Rodes: 46:58

It's about the kingdom, are you sure? Are you sure it could be a little radical right?

Grantley Martelly: 47:00

here it's about the kingdom right, amen. Bringing everybody along in the kingdom and getting back to this racism and these topics we don't want to talk about until we start talking about these things. I think there's a lot of opportunity in talking about these things because I think we may be surprised how many people are willing to have the conversation and people who are willing to come on board, who may right now be like your friend, saying I can't do that anymore because of that. We start having these conversations.

Pastor David Rodes: 47:28

maybe she will come back, yeah because somebody's willing to talk about it. I think the matter too, just to say about hope is I think hope has to like, it has to show up. Like hope has to, it's not just a word, it has to show up. I was reading in light of the fears that a lot of immigrants are facing these days. I was taken to Hebrews 10.32. Remember those earlier days, after you had received the light, when you endured a great conflict full of suffering. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution. At other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. So the issue was that sometimes you went through it, but sometimes, because of this hope right, you stand side by side, stand by side with.

Pastor David Rodes: 48:17

God and I think that our hope is like. So. Many people can look at the whole Christian hope and say, well, that's just like wishful thinking. Or people may say, well, I hope it all turns out right. Well, the hope is really grounded in the compassion and the love that is demonstrated.

Dr. Andre Sims: 48:35

Yeah, and I'd love to pick up on that word demonstrated right. So repentance is something you do, right. It's a Matthew three eight produce fruit in keeping with repentance. There's something noticeable about what you're going to do, different. You've got a change of mind and a change of heart and you're no longer walking this direction. You have this 180 degree, it demonstrated, there's a turn and you're now marching to a new drum and walking in a new light, and my ability to see that gives me hope, even if I don't even understand what what that is exactly. But I do recognize the encouragement I'm gaining from watching this person, or that person, this entity, that group Within the body.

Pastor David Rodes: 49:26

I see us moving towards the will of God, according to the Word of God, and that helps me have hope and I think if we do it, then what you're saying and we demonstrate it and it's accompanied with joy, like one of the things I noticed through all of this long election year and before is how many people of faith didn't demonstrate any joy right the fear had gripped and hopelessness was very much there, or it was placed just in a man.

Grantley Martelly: 50:04

Yeah, so fear does not exist with hope. They can't coexist together. So if we are fearful, it's going to be hard to be hopeful. Well, we want to wrap this up by just saying you know, our hope as people of faith is not in our systems, not in our country, not in all the things around us, as good as they may be, because we all benefit from that, but our hope is in a higher calling in a solid foundation in a rock that does not move.

Grantley Martelly: 50:40

The old song said we have an anchor that keeps the soul steadfast and sure as the billows roll, and our hope is in Jesus Christ. And if we put our hope in Jesus Christ, regardless of our political position, regardless of the social, economic, political things going on around us, yes, we have to be engaged, yes, we have to stay engaged. Yes, we need to speak up for those who can't speak up for themselves. Yes, we need to represent justice and peace and righteousness. But our hope is not in those things. Our hope is in Jesus Christ. And if you don't have that hope in Jesus Christ and you're fearful about what's going on, then I would encourage you to put your hope in Jesus Christ. And if you don't know how to do that, just send us an email at abovedenoise24 at gmailcom and we will get in touch with you and we will help you answer that question. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching for sure.