In this concluding episode our guest, Ijeoma Oluo: author and speaker helps us decode the true definitions of the terms: race and privilege; highlighting how racism is not just prejudice, but a systemic issue, and privilege is not a term to be weaponized but rather a descriptor of how one navigates the world. She also enlightens us on intersectionality and the importance of understanding our own privilege, as it can be a powerful tool in driving positive change.
We explore the intricate relationship between intersectionality, race, and class in America. We delve into the real-world implications of these dynamics and the harm they can cause if used to create divisions among different social groups. We also emphasize the power of learning and supporting others, encouraging a culture of constant growth that embraces diversification of information sources and the questioning of whose voices might be missing in our everyday conversations.
#abovethenoise24
# faith
#reconciliation
#race
racialreconciliation
Stay in touch:
Podcast art by Mario Christie.
In this concluding episode our guest, Ijeoma Oluo: author and speaker helps us decode the true definitions of the terms: race and privilege; highlighting how racism is not just prejudice, but a systemic issue, and privilege is not a term to be weaponized but rather a descriptor of how one navigates the world. She also enlightens us on intersectionality and the importance of understanding our own privilege, as it can be a powerful tool in driving positive change.
We explore the intricate relationship between intersectionality, race, and class in America. We delve into the real-world implications of these dynamics and the harm they can cause if used to create divisions among different social groups. We also emphasize the power of learning and supporting others, encouraging a culture of constant growth that embraces diversification of information sources and the questioning of whose voices might be missing in our everyday conversations.
#abovethenoise24
# faith
#reconciliation
#race
racialreconciliation
Stay in touch:
Podcast art by Mario Christie.
Welcome to Above the Noise, a podcast at the intersection of faith, race and reconciliation, and I'm your Grantley Martelly. My guest on this two-part episode is Ijeoma Oluo, a mom, writer, and speaker on race and identity in America, and she is the author of the book that we are discussing, "So you want to talk about race? I hope that you enjoyed part one of Ijeoma's story and her life experience. If you haven't listened to part one, I would encourage you to go back and do so. It would make a lot of sense as we continue into part two. Her story is compelling and enlightening. In this episode, we will dive further into defining terms and discussion around ensuring that we have some common clarity around the topics that are so important to move the needle ahead on this topic, we'll discuss what is racism, what is intersectionality, what is privilege and the difference between race and class. I will conclude with some ideas that may be helpful for you. If you want to explore further, let's rejoin the conversation with Ijeoma, the author of so You Want to Talk About Race?
Ijeoma Oluo:The definition of racism I work with is bias against people because of their racial identity, skin color features. That is backed up by systems of power. The reason why I add that and that's the part that people often don't like is because we're talking about the ways in which it impacts people's lives. When we're just talking about people who have bias against people because of their racial identity, we're talking about feelings. We're talking about oh, you made me sad, oh, you don't like me. You know what that might ruin your afternoon. It's not going to ruin your life.
Ijeoma Oluo:When we're talking about systems of power, we're talking about a fear of you because your skin color has been instilled in me and now I can call the police and you might die. That is a very different thing. The thing that I always tell people if they have trouble with sticking to this definition is what is the problem you're trying to solve? Are you trying to solve hurt feelings or are you trying to save lives? If you're trying to save lives, then we need to focus on these systemically generated and supported biases.
Grantley Martelly:Let's talk about that as well the systems and the institutions, because you spend a lot of time talking about that in your book as well. Let's talk about our privilege and then intersectionality, two other things that people struggle with understanding. What my experience is that you can go over yours, is if you just talk about privilege, everybody is yeah, I understand that. You say white privilege and now all of a sudden it's a different environment. The same welcoming environment now turns 180 degrees. Yeah, absolutely.
Ijeoma Oluo:It's interesting to me because I think part of that is we've weaponized privilege instead of talking about it as a really useful descriptor for how people move through systems. I honestly I have so many bones to pick with the way in which we've talked about privilege over the years. I don't know, have you ever done that privilege knapsack exercise that a lot of old school equity teachers like to do? Where they're like make a list and that's your privilege knapsack. It makes it seem like privilege are these bunch of gifts that you carry around with you that just keep you moving through the world easily. If you're someone who has suffered in life, you don't feel like you're walking around with a bunch of gifts. It's also not how privilege works. Privilege is not necessarily I moved through the world with all these gifts. This system has been designed to serve me in a particular way and hasn't put particular barriers in front of me. Because of this demographic, privilege moves and changes. White privilege means that a lot of these systems have been built to serve white people or at least haven't put barriers in front of white people the way they have in front of people of other races. You could have white privilege and then also be disabled and not have the privilege of an able to body. That means that in some rooms, if you are in an old disabled room and you're speaking, your white privilege is probably going to be speaking. If you are moving through mixed company and you're trying to get into a building that's not accessible, your white privilege isn't going to do much. It varies and is situational. Where it has value is not to tell people you don't have anything to say or you're wrong or you've taken something. It's, you may not be getting the full picture and you may not be understanding your full power. The flip side of that is that I always want people to understand why it's so vital that we understand our privilege, our own personal privilege, even more than we understand the privileges of others is where I have the power of privilege. I can make change. If I'm not making change, I'm already being co-opted into harm.
Ijeoma Oluo:I have light-skinned privilege. That means that if I am in a room and people are looking at speakers to book, I am a friendlier face to a lot of white people making these decisions. I have cisgender privilege. I have able-bodied privilege. I have class privilege.
Ijeoma Oluo:Now, all of those things mean I am in spaces other people can't be. I have a platform other people may not have, but it also means I don't have the full picture of oppression in these spaces. I have to be listening and I have to be willing to weaponize what I have for the greater good. I have to be able to say hey, I know you asked me to be on this panel, but I'm not seeing any people darker than me on this panel. I don't think I'm the person to be here. They hear me in a different way than if a dark-skinned person said how come you don't have darker-skinned people on the panel?
Ijeoma Oluo:I have to be willing to say that, but I can only say it if I'm willing to embrace where I am in the world and what that responsibility is. If you want to do real good in the world and be effective, it's actually a really wonderful thing to engage with your privilege and to be aware of. I want people to stop being afraid of it. It isn't a feel guilty. It's a - You have powerful skills that can be utilized, please, you know about it right If you think about it yeah because sometimes, when you walking in your privilege, you're not thinking about it, because it's natural.
Ijeoma Oluo:Yes, and that's why we have to be open for it.
Grantley Martelly:So I actually talk about reality involved.
Ijeoma Oluo:Yeah, yeah, and I tell people to practice. So I have a ritual every new year I actually sit down and I take a new stock of privilege and I say how has my situation changed in the last year? What space is in my hand? Who's in my circles? Who am I hearing from? Who am I not hearing from right now? And I start to guess.
Ijeoma Oluo:You know where might I be lacking privilege? And so I start listening to other voices. You know where might I have more privilege? I start asking what is happening and I make a new list of things to try to be aware of. And practicing that when I feel safe, when I feel calm, makes me better able to hear it when someone says to me hey, you know what your privilege has run wild here and you've really caused some harm. And because I'm used to kind of investigating that, yeah, I still get a little defensive at first and I can take a deep breath and go, oh, you know what, I'm being taught something really important right now because I'm more used to looking at that. So it's a skill like anything else.
Grantley Martelly:A skill? Yes, so how does that relate to intersectionality?
Ijeoma Oluo:Well, you have to understand privilege in order to be able to understand intersectionality. And that's why even in my book, I have the privilege chapter right before intersectionality, because it's a lot of people will throw around terms like intersectionality and have no idea of their privilege. And I always remember I was at an event at a Ivy League institution and they were supposed to be talking about race and issues of race at this luncheon and they had a white woman talking and she did not talk about race, she was talking, talking, talking. She goes I'm supposed to be talking about race and she's like and you may notice, I'm a white one, I'm a white person, but I'm also the woman and that's called intersectionality. And then she just talked about being a white woman and I was like no, this is not.
Ijeoma Oluo:This is the failure of understanding privilege right here, because it's not just saying we have a woman in the room. You have to understand in that space what your privilege is. So intersectionality is basically the understanding that privilege is relative and that you bring multiple identities into a space that have different privileges and different oppressions, and those identities interact with systems differently and if we are going to be building effective solutions to oppression, we have to be willing to look at all of those different interactions, most importantly so that we can center those most impacted. And so I always tell people if we center those most impacted, it will serve all of us. If we center those least impacted, it will only serve those least impacted. And so, understanding that when I enter a room, I am a black queer woman in every room I'm in, and that means that when we're talking about issues around race, people have to be able to understand my sexual identity and my gender and how racism interacts with that. If I am in feminist spaces, people have to be willing to look at my sexual identity and my race and understand that solutions that they are proposing may well make me less safe.
Ijeoma Oluo:So lack of intersectionality can have a real, incredible functional harm, and I think it's really important that we talk about that part, because when Dr Kimberly Crenshaw developed this term, that's what she was looking at. She was not looking at are we having fun conversations? Does everyone feel welcome? She was looking at are we putting in place policies that are harming people? And so if we look at things like gender-based violence and we look at organizations trying to keep women safe from gender-based violence, from sexual assault, from relationship assault, and they say we're going to partner with police to make sure that police are showing up every day, that every time that someone's called, please come and they're ready to charge someone.
Ijeoma Oluo:Sending police officers to the home of black people who may be an emotionally charged situation is a very different situation than sending them to the home of white people. You are putting everyone in danger. So even looking at that, that's a failure of intersectionality. And we know black women who have been killed or their partners have been killed or their children, just in the news. What was it? Last week A young boy was shot in the chest because he called seeking safety for his mother. So that is a failure of intersectionality that we don't support and build up systems that say, hey, these carceral solutions don't interact with people of other races in the same way or with disabled people in the same way, and so it's really important that we say this makes us our work not only work better, but it stops it from causing real, serious harm.
Grantley Martelly:That is a beautiful explanation, probably one of the clearest I've heard in a long time. I appreciate that. You also said one more that you said in the book that I thought was very powerful that class and race are not the same thing.
Ijeoma Oluo:Yeah, and it's something that I have to constantly reiterate to people. You know, race is a function of class, right? So racism, as we know it, is a function of class. This whole idea that populations of color were built to be exploited, our threats, are not supposed to be able to fully participate in economic wealth, is a function of class, and it is meant to make sure that there is always a labor force you can get really cheap, if not free, labor from, but also to lock white people in their space amongst class. That being said, it has its own functions, it is its own thing, it has its own identity.
Ijeoma Oluo:Now, and if you're unwilling to look at race and how it holds its own separate levers, even within class, you will never actually come up with any effective class based solutions. And so a lot of times, people say it's not race, it's class. You can't separate the two. And so even in my book, I said you know, ask yourself, are black people in America poor? For the same reason, white people in America are poor? No, they're not, because not only do different factors impact us, but the factors that impact us all impact us to a greater degree, and so if we don't recognize that, not only do we not get complete solutions, but racism can always be weaponized.
Ijeoma Oluo:So when we look at the downfall of the labor unions in the United States over recent decades, what we see time and time again is race being used to drive that wedge. Right. We see workers saying you know, the problem isn't that you're not unionized, it's that we have a form of action or the. You know, if you go on strike, we're going to get laborers of color to come in for less pay and take your jobs, right. Or we're going to ship your jobs overseas to workers of color who are willing to work for nothing, right. And of course quote unquote willing to work is an assumption, right.
Ijeoma Oluo:And time and time again, labor unions have fallen for, and what it means is that some of the biggest labor forces we have, right, young workers of color, don't feel like union, support them, and so then conservatives can come in and say why are you paying your union dues? They won't do anything for you. And that's actually very true for a lot of workers of color, because racism has effectively separated workers of color from labor unions, right. So I want people to understand that it's not just we have to understand race. We can have effective solutions to class based scenarios, it's. If we don't understand it, the war against hyper- capitalism will always be lost.
Grantley Martelly:My guest today is Ijeoma Oluo, the author of "Mediocre: the Dangerous Legacy of White Male America, and the one that we're talking about today, the New York Times bestseller. So you want to talk about race. I want to tell you about my friend, Darren Porter and his great team at performanceaudio. com. Performanceaudio. com can be your your your one-stop shop for professional quality electronics, live audio recording, podcasting and live performance. I've been doing business with the team at performance audio for over 20 years and they have always specialized in the highest quality equipment at reasonable prices and they ship worldwide. So don't just settle for the cheapest thing on the Internet. You get what you pay for. Go to performanceaudio. com and see the wide variety of professional quality electronics, recording equipment, and live sound reinforcement. They even carry lighting and DJing resources, all at reasonable prices. So say hi to Darren and check out Performanceaudio. com.
Grantley Martelly:These are some heavy topics and we could spend an entire podcast on one of these topics, but we're trying to move people through. I'm not going to encourage you if you haven't got this book yet. A copy of this book is widely available and, like Ijeoma says, there's those topics in there that help you understand some of these definitions that people are just throwing around without much understanding of what they mean and they're creating lots of confusion. Ijeoma, I raised a few things that I picked out that I thought would help people understand, but is there anyone that we missed or a couple that you want to talk about? That needs to be explained before we go into talking about tools that people can use.
Ijeoma Oluo:But one thing I would just, I guess I want to stress right now for people is I am seeing a lot of people act as if there are certain hot zones for racist oppression and there are cold zones and there aren't. Everything is a hot zone right now. Everything you're seeing in the news happening in Florida, happening in Idaho, happening in you know all these other places in Texas it's happening here too. It may be happening in a smaller scale, it may be a little quieter. It's happening everywhere you live in the United States and you need to act accordingly. And so I am actually really terrified right now with watching how people are shaking their heads at the Florida school bills that are making it illegal to talk about race and to talk about gender, to talk about sexuality, and people are going oh, never go to Florida and not realizing that, school by school by school here in the Seattle area, it's also happening right, and so I think-.
Grantley Martelly:And in Washington state as well.
Ijeoma Oluo:Absolutely, and people need to be very, very proactive. All of these schools and districts are being changed in horrifically violent ways by five, 10 parents showing up, and what I want to know is where are the 100 parents who believe that real education and safe spaces for kids is important? Where are they? Why are they waiting until these bills are passed? And so we have to stop acting like, oh, it's just in this one area. These are coordinated efforts, right? So the paperwork, the talking points, everything is being packaged and sent to parent groups all over the country to ensure, because we aren't showing up and doing our job, that a small minority of terrified, ill-informed, closed-minded kids can make our children unsafe and change the political landscape of this country.
Grantley Martelly:Yes, that is true, and I'm glad you brought that up, because that is something that many people don't realize is happening right in front of their faces until it happens and then it's like oh, I didn't even realize that that was going on. I had no idea they were talking to the legislators and that somebody had proposed this bill. People are actually supporting it. At this point, as we look to wrap up our hour together. So what are three to five tools that you would share with people who are saying this is very interesting to me. I'm one of those people who want to help. I just didn't understand. I'm trying to understand, or I want to get engaged, but I don't know what to do.
Ijeoma Oluo:One I would say you should do and learn at the same time. So learning there are amazing books that have absolutely informed a lot of the work I do. Please lean into the work of Angela Davis, lean into the work of Franz van der Merriam-Kaba, right, learn about the foundations of how these systems are working. And then also listen to contemporary voices. So right now, I would say the most important vital liberation work in our society is being done by disabled people of color, in particular disabled black people. So listening to those voices entering these spaces with respect to learn and support is really important. And then I would say, find out what's happening in your neighborhood. So pick one space, one space that interests you. Do you love music? Find out what's happening in your local music scene. Do you have children? Find out what's happening in your school districts, right. Are you interested in local politics? Find out what's happening in your city, in your county, in your state. Look at what is happening with a racial analysis. So start asking who's in this space, who's benefiting from this space, who isn't, and then say where's my power in this? And so recognize where you have power. Who can you talk to? Is it just you have a couple of friends that you know, great. You know what. Five people are better than one, right? Is it? People in your church listen to you? Is it? You have the free time to show up at a school board meeting? You know all of these things really matter. Look at that and then listen to what people impacted people in these communities have been saying they need Ask people to join you and start taking a step. But just pick one area. Pick one area that means a lot to you and really dive in. So know things like you know.
Ijeoma Oluo:For me, if it's school right. As a parent, I'm always thinking of schools. I have to know what percentage of kids of color I have from my schools. I need to know how these kids of color, broken down by race and ethnicity, are graduating or faring. How many of them are being suspended or expelled. Do we have cops in our schools? How many teachers of color do we have? How many administrators of color do we have? How many school programs are being built to support these kids right? What processes do we have in place for these kind of carceral systems that come and play with students Knowing that?
Ijeoma Oluo:Then I can pick this and say I'm gonna be showing up at these school board meetings, I'm gonna be taking this to my local principal, I'm gonna be taking this to parent-teacher conferences and I'm gonna make sure that other parents I know in my son's school know this as well, and we're gonna come together and we're gonna build communication right. That is one thing that I can do. That may not seem huge, but it could impact 30 beautiful important children, or 3,000 beautiful important children, right. And so I start there. And so just start where you are and really build from there.
Grantley Martelly:One that I would add and I think you said it in your book was don't be afraid to fail at first. You're not gonna be an expert coming out to get.
Ijeoma Oluo:Absolutely none of us will, right, and that doesn't even matter necessarily your race or ethnicity, because we all came up in these systems that have purposefully kept us from important knowledge on how systemic oppression works, you know? And so we're all going to mess up. Be open to that, while also taking accountability, right? So I always tell people you have to hold these two things in your head. It happens all the time and it's not okay, right? So you didn't invent that racist mess up that you made. It's not okay, but you're not the worst person in the world, right? So you have to hold both, saying okay, you know what.
Ijeoma Oluo:This is part of a system. There are multiple entities accountable, and I am one of those entities and I can take control of my accountability and learn and do better, right? And so you have to manage that, because if you're desperately afraid of finding out that you've caused harm, you're going to run from it and then you're just going to keep causing harm. Be open to it. I always try to remind people it is so much worse to be causing harm and never know the debt. Have someone tell you that you've caused harm and you have the opportunity to absorb that pain, learn and do better. Every time someone brings harm to me that I have caused, it absolutely hurts. I never want to hear it, and then I'm always so grateful that someone was kind enough and generous enough to tell me so that I can stop causing that harm.
Grantley Martelly:Right, learning from our mistakes and moving forward. One of the one I want to put on the table also is that I've found that hurts cause people not to move is trying to believe that because I want to get involved, before I can get involved I have to become an expert in everything. I have to know every definition, I have to know all the statistics, I have to be able to answer every question and I'm not going to start until I have it all down right, which means you're never going to start.
Ijeoma Oluo:Right, and you don't have to, and I think it's really important that people understand some of the best ways in which we've been able to move movements, build movements, is by learning from each other. So it's not, you know, and that's the thing that's frustrating, right, when you saw 2020, and I always likened it to if you're walking down the street and there's a house on fire and you say, instead of I'm going to try to put this fire out or I'm going to call some for help, I'm going to go home and read about the history of fire, right, but that's not, that's not the thing to be doing. Great example, great example, great example, and so and it doesn't it also doesn't mean you run into the house with no idea of what to do about fire. It means you say, here, how can we help? Right, and that's what we should be doing.
Ijeoma Oluo:And then you can learn. You do that enough and you learn. And when you have downtime, yeah, keep investing in that learning, keep reading. But we actually have people who are doing this work every day and you can support them, you can follow their lead, right, and then you can, when you have time, enrich your knowledge by these books. You know, read these things, but get out and support the work now. And so, if you don't know, support the people that do. You know, and please support the people that do.
Grantley Martelly:And it's okay not to know it, because knowledge accumulates over time. Knowledge is not an instant in time. Knowledge is a process.
Ijeoma Oluo:Yes, and that's when I think one of the most dangerous things about American culture is we actually shame admitting you don't know, something, like we came out of the womb with perfect knowledge. And it's so dangerous because you see people afraid to admit they were wrong, afraid to just say I don't know. And I was actually just telling my partner this. He's the only man in my entire life I've ever known who stops me in the middle of conversations and says wait, I don't know what that word means, what is that? And I've never experienced that in my life. Wow, and that's how rare it is. But he wants to know. He's not thinking oh it's embarrassing that I don't know this thing. He's thinking I can't fully learn and engage If I don't just say I don't know what that means. I understand and you know.
Ijeoma Oluo:So many people would say oh God, you know. And we see that online, right? Someone says I'm so sorry, I didn't know. People like you don't have anything to apologize for. Never apologize why? Why not just say but you don't know? We have to do that. That's how we learn.
Grantley Martelly:Have to do that. So is there anything any of the closing comments you wanna add before we wrap it up?
Ijeoma Oluo:No, I think that's it. I just hope that people get out there and start asking themselves, who am I not hearing from? And start diversifying where they're getting their news, where they're getting their information.
Grantley Martelly:But thank you very, very much Again. I am privileged that you chose to join me and privileged you chose to be my guest. The way that we met each other was a whole other story. It's just, I don't believe in coincidences. Somebody told me God had that ordained that way so that you would meet her, because it was not even on any of our paths for us to have met.
Grantley Martelly:And I am thankful that I did meet you at some good conversations and our group is still talking about how powerful that was. I had somebody call me the other day and says I was on the edge of my seat and I could have listened to her for another hour and not even realize how fast the time had gone. So you made a dramatic impact on our team and I thank you for that and I wish you all the best on Godspeed and all the important work that you're doing, because it's changing lives and changing communities and it's helping people learn how to be changed agents. And I appreciate you for being that outspoken person, because being outspoken doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily a bad thing when it is in the right places.
Ijeoma Oluo:Thank you. Thank you so much and it was a real pleasure to talk with you and a real pleasure to meet you.
Grantley Martelly:Wow, I think we'll have to have you drama back again. I hope that you enjoyed this Two episodes talking about these topics, that you've been more enlightened, you now have a reference to go where, if you're having discussions, you can use those topics in the book to sort of begin the discussion, to frame it out, and then people can always diverge about whether they agree with the definition or not and have discussion, but at least now there's a reference point that we can all begin to agree with. So that's a good starting point and then discussions can go from there and maybe they'll also help be a good tool to share with someone else who may be trying to understand these topics as you drama closes out. She reminded us that we can all get involved. We can all do something different. She reminded us that do and learn at the same time. We don't have to do things in sequence. We can get involved as we learn. We can find out what is happening in our local communities, and then we can show up and let our voice be heard. We can ask people to join us. And also, don't be afraid to fail. We'll all fail. We'll all have difficult times, but the more we get comfortable doing it, the better we become at it, and no one is an expert when they start anything. We all are learning together. Thanks for joining us and see you next time.
Grantley Martelly:["the Last Song of the Year"]. Remember to subscribe and leave us a rating. Ratings are very important to help in our podcasts, succeed in the podcast universe and helping it become known to other people. Email us your comments at abovethenoise24 at gmailcom. Abovethenoise24 at gmailcom, and follow us on Instagram and Facebook at abovethenoise24. Thank you for listening and please share this episode with a friend. ["the Last Song of the Year"]. ["the Last Song of the Year"].